walkonthemoon’s story:
Just wanted to let you know…. This actually happened to me around Christmas time. I had a customer request a Custom Order & then Subsequently change her mind. I refunded her payment & never marked the item as shipped. About 2 months later I got an email from Etsy saying I did not ship an item and the Customer was furnished with the FBI Cyber Crime thing & my account would be suspended if I did not respond. I responded to the email explaining that she changed her mind & the Payment was refunded. About 2 days later I got the same email & responded agian explaining what happened. I even contacted the buyer (nicely - & asked if she was unhappy in any way with the way the transaction had been concluded & to doublecheck that she had received her refund).She said she had received her refund promptly & was very satisfied since it was she who had backed out of the transaction. She said she had not reported the transaction to Etsy in any way. In fact, she had left me Pos. feedback previously.
FINALLY, I got a 3rd notice from Etsy staing the same as before & saying my account would be suspended within 24 hrs (or something like that) if I did not respond. I responded once agian, somewhat harshly…that I had responded to their emails on 2 previous occasions and was quite unhappy that I was continuing to receive these threatening emails when I had, infact done nothing wrong. My account was suspended! I sent an email directly to admin, explianing what had happened, that I was furious & what did I need to do to have my shop re-instated (offering to send the Paypal receipt from the refund). The next day I got an email from Admin saying something to the effect of ooops, we made a mistake, your shop had been re-activated. No explaination, no apology, nothing. I had no idea this was happening to so many others. Thanks for putting it all on the UEN! -Regina (walkonthemoon)
14 April 2007 1:12pm EDT
Note: As you read these accounts, please keep in mind that UEN only has access to one side of the story: the seller’s. We believe, however, that this is far too important an issue to go unmentioned.
April 15th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
:-/
April 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Oh wow…I really , really hope they’ve learned their lesson this time & actually do put new procedures in place to prevent this ever happening again! That’s what I was told would happen, & I really hope so! Sorry to hear about your experience Regina!
April 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
seriously ooc.
April 15th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I’m sorry to hear about your stressful ordeal. I hope it was not too much of a disruption to your business.
Can I ask: if the buyer did not file a complaint with Etsy, how did the problem begin? How did Etsy learn of the transaction? What prompted them to contact you?
April 15th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
How horrible for you and the others who have posted here, I can’t imagine closing a shop with such great feedback records as those posted here after any single incident.
I’m also surprised to hear that when contact through email fails, that the member isn’t then contacted by convo before action is taken. I wouldn’t even consider leaving bad feedback before trying to get in touch with a non-paying buyer/non-responsive seller through both of those options.
Someone please tell me that FBI Cyber Crime reports are not the first response to any issue about an unsuccessful transaction… please…
April 15th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Found another story here:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/etsy_love/discuss/72157600035850897/
*sigh*
April 15th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Walkonthemoon, I mentioned it in the thread we had about magicjelly’s suspension incident, but is there a chance you could invite your customer here? It sounds like she’s a reasonable person, and if we had her side of the story regarding your transaction and her experience with Etsy’s customer service department, we would have a better vision of the issue.
Basically, it seems like there are more than two sides to these stories we’re hearing.
The Seller’s side.
The Customer’s side.
Etsy’s side. (Which shouldn’t be a side, per se, if they are attempting to be mediators.)
April 15th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Wow. Disturbing.
If the buyer never complained, how did etsy even get involved in this transaction? Do they have some kind of bot which searches for transactions where the “shipped” box is not checked? Why would they threaten a seller with suspension without even contacting the buyer or looking at the feedback they left? What about “hearing both sides of the story”? In this case they didn’t hear ANY sides of the story- the buyer was never contacted and the sellers reply emails were never read.
All of these “oops” explanations by etsy just aren’t enough. (and not even an “oops, SORRY”, just an “oops”) They need to tell the sellers how the mistake occurred and that they are taking steps to make sure it never happens again.
April 15th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Elizabeth said,
April 15, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Found another story here:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/etsy_love/discuss/72157600035850897/
That seller appears to have left voluntarily though, they did receive some pretty ridiculous warnings (a naked mannequin? come on!) but I don’t see anything where she was suspended like these other 3 sellers. I can understand her leaving though after the experience she had.
April 15th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Someone voluntarily leaving because they’d rather do that than answer questions that result from having their items flagged is unfortunate, but not on the same scale as having one’s shop forcibly shut down.
April 15th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
I agree with Kate Black.
We can’t ask Etsy to be firm with violations that muck up the works for other sellers (mis-listings, non-handmade) and ask them to be responsive when we flag, then be upset when they follow through.
I’m not keen on a seller being asked to change a photo because a mannequin *looks* naked (nor even that a live person *is* naked), I’m not clear on how that fits in with the guidelines. And it appears in this case that it would’ve been better for a staff member to virtually sit with the new seller and explain how Etsy works once they realized they’d issued numerous flags for the same just-signed-up person. Or even ask a mentor to show them the ropes. That’s not the best welcome to a new seller..
I think the situation expressed on Flickr is just another example of how difficult it is to get started on Etsy, how scattered the resources are, how the copycat reports could be better handled, and how badly a Welcome Seller email package is needed.
April 15th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
I’m glad that you all started the UEN. I feel like someone finally cared enough to remove my “blinders”
April 15th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
It also seems like some of BritWit’s warnings from admin came after not enough investigation on their part. The item she was accused of “copying” from another seller was a vintage dress. Assuming it said that in the description and it was in the vintage category, and that she did not claim to have made it herself, why would admin even proceed with the “copying” complaint? They should have looked at the listing and dropped the case as groundless right then. If anything, the other seller who had handmade their dress was influenced by the vintage style, not vice versa. Totally understandable since 80’s fashion is back in style now, but makers of retro-style items must know it’s all been done before. It’s kind of ironic to accuse anyone of “copying” a retro-style item.
We’ve always been told that flagged items are seriously investigated before any action is taken, which accounted for the sometimes long delays in action. But from this example, it doesn’t appear the flagging staff even read the listing for the flagged item.
April 15th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
JB,
It’s hard to tell in that particular case because we can’t review the items and store in question ourselves (the store no longer exists). Maybe the listings were confusing or provided insufficient info. While in the cases of the other sellers who’ve given testimonials here, we can review their activities to get some context for their stories.
April 15th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Sorry, yes, that’s why only I posted it as a comment, because it’s not in the same league. However, again, I think it shows lack of coordination of communication.
April 15th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
If etsy ever notifies me I am at risk of getting suspension, I think I would FAX or send mail to the etsy HQ. These stories disturb me on all sorts of levels, but the seeming lack of communication and coordination are bizarre. It’s almost as if the form letters are being sent out by a computerized system - anyone else get that sense too?
Surreal.
Sorry to everyone to whom these nasto-grams have been sent. I RECKON there were instances on the site warranting a report to the Cyber Crime folks, but really, none of the situations here come close.
That would piss me off. I wouldn’t have reacted as nicely.
April 15th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
I guess a lesson for those who may get into similar situations would be to not just send an email and assume it’s being acted on properly, but to follow up on the dispute process diligently to make sure that things are on track. I’m a go getter, so I’d send daily/bi-daily emails until I got a response. Seems like extra work, but what happens when customers try to visit your shop and find it’s no longer there? Eek.
Not that such proactivity should be required, but after dealing with the most dense form of bureaucracy possibly ever invented, a university, it seems that personally adding grease to the wheels is the way to go. I don’t want to admit how annoying I’ve been to various departments, but I’ve gotten what I wanted, eventually.
Reading the post about efforts to improve site speed (here) made me wonder if Etsy has a customer service “load balancer.” Like, when every support email comes in, maybe it could be assigned to a specific staff member. There could be one person that gets all the initial complaints and sorts them throughout the team. Then, the admin assigned to a case could be the go-to person for anyone with questions about what’s going on, and Rob could be the boss in charge. The seller could write that admin about the case, not the general support@etsy email, which I’m sure gets barraged each hour. This is how it’s been done where I’ve worked, anyway. And maybe this is how it’s done now–I don’t know.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:03 am
I’ve been reading and not commenting since all of this started, but reading this just tipped me over the edge. It seems like they came up with these “rules”, for lack of a better word and handed them over to those working “customer service” and said “ok, enforce!” So, off they go, enforcing the rules as they read them, without everyone being on the same page, or without a central tracking area for communications with buyers/sellers. It’s ridiculous…kinda like trying to rustle together a stamped with a piece of thread.
I honestly think they need to sit down and discuss rules and situations with their employees before they sic them on the populace.
This is all just amazing…and not in the good sort of way. :(
April 16th, 2007 at 12:03 am
Serena,
Etsy CS can fit into one room. Isn’t there less than 10?
Hardly a bureaucracy.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:53 am
There are less than 10 CS staff. But not all of them are in Brooklyn, some work remotely from other cities. It sounds hard to imagine such a small company would have communication issues but it can definitely happen when there are not good sytems set in place. For example, etsy are still handling all their CS through email. Email is a terrible tool for CS with multiple staff because you’re the only one who can read your email. Admin A can’t read what admin B wrote to the customer. They need a central area, a third party helpdesk software that uses help ticket forms, that allows multiple staff members to access the case history, allows the customer to access their case for updates or to add more info, allows staff to make internal private notes that the customer doesn’t see, that has a good internal search, that allows staff to triage tickets and assign them different priority levels, etc. These kinds of software are not expensive- especially compared with building it all yourself- and some of the cheapest are also some of the best.
April 16th, 2007 at 7:54 am
JB, perhaps they don’t know this?
You sound like you’re familiar with the types of software. You should email Etsy and provide them with brand names and suggestions.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:36 am
I think JB hit the nail on the head.
The fact is that Etsy is infamous for their lack of communication with Etsy members, not to mention the several public instances of lack of communication between themselves. I have my doubts that they were forward thinking enough to setup a helpdesk interface.
If you don’t send the email JB, I’d be more than happy to.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
It seems odd to me that some stores are being shut down with almost no warning and for no cause, and then, there are other stores that have tons of negative feedback, neutral feedback, in some cases there appears to be shilling going on, and some of the stores are selling items so cheaply and in such quantity that it is highly unlikely that they are actual “handmade” items, but even when everyone flags them, they stay open. What gives?
April 16th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
“You sound like you’re familiar with the types of software. You should email Etsy and provide them with brand names and suggestions.”
I have suggested it on the forums multiple times, and either Rob or RD replied (I forget which) and said they don’t like to use third party software, they like to build everything in-house. He gave some reasons for this, all of which I could shoot a million holes in, but I just gave up and held my tongue. (fingers?) I made the suggestion, he rejected it, and I didn’t want to continue to nag about it. It seemed their #1 reason against it was he didn’t like how third party apps look, they aren’t cool enough looking. (insert rolly-eyed emoticon here)
The reasons for not building it yourself greatly outweigh the reasons for building it yourself from scratch, the most important reason being COST. You can get a really good third party helpdesk solution for a couple hundred dollars, and only about $40 year after that for the liscence. It would cost 100x more to build it yourself with the going rates of developer time. And it will take months to build it yourself whereas a third party solution can be up and running in one day. Plus, don’t we want etsy developers making etsy itself work better, advanced search and stats and other things to help us buy and sell? Why should they be wasting their time making CRM software? It’s frustrating when they stubbornly reject things which could make their lives so much easier, like the admin announcements forum.
Mostly the reason I suggested it was pity and solidarity for their CS staff because I cannot IMAGINE trying to do all their CS through email. It’s just so inefficient, they could hire and train ten more staff to keep up with the backlog or they can spend $400 and increase each existing staffer’s productivity by three-fold, at least. My work has a larger userbase than etsy and fewer CS staff than etsy, but we still have a faster response time than etsy because we have the right tools to do the job.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
BTW, does anyone know who their CS manager is? Is it Emily? On their about page it doesn’t list department managers or titles or anything, it just says “I do customer support for etsy”. Maybe they want to be so indie and cuddly that no one has titles and they don’t have “managers”? That could be part of the problem right there. Someone has to manage it, especially when some of the staff are working remotely, you have to have a manager/coordinator to keep everyone organized and in the loop. Anyway if it is Emily then I really have a lot of empathy for her.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
*cough*cough* :)
I feel you’re correct on all points there. :)
I don’t really know who does what or who reports to who. I’d guess contact Emily and cc Rob?
When I contracted for Etsy and asked who’d I be reporting to I was told that I wouldn’t be reporting to anyone, and got the sense that was the case for everyone. Which not only makes it very difficult when you are trying to do a job, but is the cause of many problems I see. Without managers there cannot be accountability. Without accountability, it is not clear what should be done nor who should do it.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
JB said,
I have suggested it on the forums multiple times, and either Rob or RD replied (I forget which) and said they don’t like to use third party software, they like to build everything in-house. He gave some reasons for this, all of which I could shoot a million holes in, but I just gave up and held my tongue. (fingers?) I made the suggestion, he rejected it, and I didn’t want to continue to nag about it. It seemed their #1 reason against it was he didn’t like how third party apps look, they aren’t cool enough looking. (insert rolly-eyed emoticon here)
You know, part of genius is to recognize if/when a wheel should be recreated. Wasn’t this the same reason for not having a site map, why they are being resistant to an announcement board? Features that not only are pretty much the norm but also serve a useful purpose (which is the reason those features didn’t go the way of the dinosaur).
April 16th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
“When I contracted for Etsy and asked who’d I be reporting to I was told that I wouldn’t be reporting to anyone, and got the sense that was the case for everyone.”
sorry about the mess, my head just exploded. I’ll get the mop….
seriously wtf? You GOTS to have managers! I don’t just say this because I am one, LOL. When I was the one being managed I felt the same way. The times I haven’t had a good manager, and was left to sink or swim on my own, have been some of the worst jobs. The jobs where I knew someone was keeping me informed, was acting on my input, was there for me to refer difficult cases to, have been the best jobs.
It’s not about one person being “above” someone else or ordering them what to do. If etsy are so hippie they can’t stand the word ‘manager’, then call it a CS coordinator or something. But whatever you call it, you gots to have it!
April 16th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
well said.
I feel that way about much of the forums, policies and checkout process. part of intelligence is being resourceful and utilizing past information.
There are 3rd party forum packages that already exist, are more robust than Etsy’s, with more user features than Etsy’s, and better meet internet user standards than Etsy’s. Packages that already offer options for sticky posts, bookmarking, editing, reporting, searching, archiving, announcements, post history.
I’ve never understood why a from-scratch and inferior interface needed to be developed, as opposed to skinning or modifying an existing structure: cheaper, faster, uses less resources, more effective. I would have rather have seen development time been spent on the checkout process and search features than on the Etsy forum design and a from-scratch build. I say that and I’m a DESIGNER. I break out in a rash when I see things that aren’t visually appealing. ;)
April 16th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
If you only knew the countless discussions I’ve attempted, only be be met with a semantic/vocabulary dismissal because I dared to used the word “manager”, or “business”, or “professional”, or “PR”. Hippie was the only word I could think to describe it too.
I can’t say positively that there weren’t any managers, but at the time I was involved with them I didn’t see any evidence of it. And I can’t say I’ve seen information since to indicate there are now. I mean, there is some sense of hierarchy, obviously, because you have the founders driving some decisions. But it seems that they key person(s) is willfully opposed to actually acknowledging that these structures naturally form and are critical, so “shhh. don’t say it! that’s bad!”. It’s pretty maddening to me.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
I guess they want Etsy to be totally handmade (by them). That is what Etsy is all about, isnt it? If they use a third party software, it is like us buying from someone else and then selling it in our store.
Dont get me wrong, I am totally *for* third party software, especially since Etsy is in this state now.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
oh god yes. I’ve also suggested (along with many others) they should use a third party forum software like phpbb or v-bulletin, RD rejected that too.
I think etsy are getting too bogged down in this “handmade” ideal. Not EVERY tool we use has to be handmade. Sometimes you don’t need to redesign a hammer from scratch, they have been the same size and shapoe for a thousand years because that design works. Just go to the store and buy a hammer for 20 bucks, and get to work building the house with it.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Cindy,
I hope that’s not the reason why. If that’s the rationale, why stop there. Why not build their own hardware?
Seriously, I don’t extract my own oils much less grow my own olive tree to collect olives to press. I rely on the expertise of others who preceded me (sometimes for thousands) of years for starting blocks for items which I handmade and are my own.
You know, most great achievements are not constructed de novo.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
“because I dared to used the word “manager”, or “business”, or “professional”, or “PR”.”
OMG those are not 4-letter words! Those are all good things. I have always imagined the etsy admins making faces whenever someone on the forums says the word “professional”, they think it’s a bad thing or that it means they have to wear suits and ties every day. UGH. Jeez guys it’s not the 60’s and you’re not teenagers, please grow up a little. Professional is not a dirty word and it won’t make you “establishment”. It will make you successful. (which BTW is also not a dirty word!)
I was somewhat dissapointed that ridiculous langauge about “don’t expect us to talk like robots” was kept in the D&D, this really reveals their prejudice against professionalism as though only robots can be expected to act professional.
Humans can be professional and professionals can be human.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Okay dyno-mite. Show us how you do the quoting thing. Its killing me not knowing how to. ;)
April 16th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
quoted text goes here
just remove the asterisks
April 16th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
goo it didn’t work
[blockquote][p]quoted text goes here[/p][/blockquote]
switch out the [ and ] for
April 16th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
switch out the [ and ] for > and
April 16th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
pardon my language, but I am going to say it as I see it…
What the hell! are we living in the days of Nazi Germany, where you could be penalized for no reason at the whim of the state? Or are we living in a hopefully free country, with the right to freedom, and yes, we need to have rules….but disciple at whim is not rules. It is facism, and wrong. The USA has fought many wars to put an end to tyranny.
Admin, I know you have a hard job, but lets not turn into a facist type site, please! You need to apply rules with some degree of knowledge…we need to know them, you need to enforce them. PERIOD.
:(
April 16th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
I give up, it keeps stripping out the formatting, you have to use greater than/less than brackets instead of [ and ]
April 16th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
April 16th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Thanks JB. :)
April 16th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
JB said,
April 16, 2007 @ 6:07 pm · Edit
“because I dared to used the word “manager”, or “business”, or “professional”, or “PR”.”
OMG those are not 4-letter words!
I agree. It’s a little disingenuous anyway - it’s called Etsy Inc. By definition, it’s a corporation. Not all corporations are bad and/or big. We all manage in our lives, well, if we have any time constraints at all on us. Individual sellers are “PR people” on a daily basis - heck, people are every time they decide what to wear and whether it is appropriate for the occasion even if it’s informal.
It’s all good.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
“When I contracted for Etsy and asked who’d I be reporting to I was told that I wouldn’t be reporting to anyone, and got the sense that was the case for everyone.”
Got to say, it shows……
There appears to be no real structure.
Hell, even if there was only three guys working on it, there would still need to be structure.
When you’re looking after thousands of customers (members) it is vital to have definitive areas for things like Customer Service. At least there would be some continuity….which is painfully lacking at the moment.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:43 am
I’ve got a four-letter word for Etsy: damage control.
April 17th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=5081880
another threat of shop suspension, this time the complaint was made because the seller did not email the buyer immediately after the purchase. I never knew that was required by etsy! I usually do it anyway but I thought that was the seller’s decision.
Also this seller has 100% positive feedback, and was threatened with shop suspension based on one customer’s complaint.
January 19th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
[...] http://etsynews.com/75/another-case-of-erroneous-shop-suspension/ [...]
February 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 am
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