Through comments here on UEN, and other communications, at least three cases [edited for accuracy] two cases we know of firsthand, and another on which we’re trying to get details, have come to light where shops have been suspended or almost suspended due to poor communication within Etsy, or arbitrary decisions made by Etsy based on no rules that we can find, or simple “technical glitches” that Etsy has acknowledged but for which they have not apologized.
Here are some excerpts of two of the stories, with links to the complete descriptions:
MagicJelly’s story (note: a former Featured Seller on Etsy):
A seller DID complain about me - a week & a half after the purchase date for not receiving their parcel, & I’m in Australia & he’s in the US! Instead of referring the buyer to me, giving me the benefit of the doubt or explaining on my behalf that assuming non-delivery was premature, Etsy banned me & issued the buyer with an FBI cyber-crime form to complain about me!
The fact that it was all an Etsy bungle because apparently they sent me warning emails that I never got because their system wasn’t working, & 2 people were working on the case & didn’t tell each other (one of whom I was in contact with), etc, is not the point. The point is, do Etsy, as a venue, have a legal right to basically force a seller to refund or re-send? Refunding to a dissatisfied buyer is a COURTESY, it is a discretionary policy that each seller must decide on, & nowhere in Etsy’s terms does it state that sellers must do so. If it did, we’d all be vulnerable to potential buyer dishonesty. Many of us do offer refunds, etc, but that is OUR choice & OUR policy, not something Etsy should be using standover tactics to enforce!
And if you think having a spotless record will save you, it won’t. I have over 600 transactions & 100% feedback, & one misguided complaint resulted in suspension. link
I’ve been told they issued me with system warnings once a week, but I never got them coz there was something wrong from their end. But I did get the email informing me I was suspended. I was told I was suspended because after the initial complaint, admin hadn’t heard back from “either party”…me, because I hadn’t received the emails, & the buyer because he was out of town. But someone else from admin HAD contacted me & the issue had been resolved…but neither of the two people working on the dispute knew about the other. The buyer returned to find his order had arrived, & all this drama had blown up. link
First of all I was told I was banned as admin assumed I was inactive as I hadn’t answered their emails (the ones I never got!). I pointed out that my shop was obviosuly active as I’d been fulfilling orders, giving & receiving feedback, etc, & they could have tried convoing me, but was told it’s not procedure to follow up on disputes by convo. Wouldn’t that be preferable to erroneously banning someone? And as it happens, the admin person who DID contact me, did so by convo…so procedural rules can be overlooked. link
ScrapScrap’s story:
I, too, was banned last week, albeit temporarily, over a “glitch.” I didn’t even get an apology, just an “Oops, we re-opened your account and are looking into why it happened.” link
I was banned last week as a ‘glitch’ according to Emily.
I was informed on Tuesday (the 10th) that unless I sent a specific buyer (one from hell, I might add) $8+ I would be banned permanently, as a repeat offender! Funny, there wasn’t any offense, let alone being a repeat offender. Fine, dandy. link
On the 5th, everything was hunky-dory. On the 10th, I received a notice that I would be permanently suspended if I didn’t prove the buyer had received an $8.31 refund.
After providing screenshots of my paypal account, and proof of payment to the buyer, Etsy says “No harm, no foul. And the buyer claims they still didn’t get their refund. You really should give them that money”
Anyone that sells is at risk of being suspended, through no fault of their own. And if you’re not already using it, add d/c or tracking to your packages. link
(I’m still getting details on the third incident.)If we know of these incidents only through people who know about the UEN and are comfortable posting here, imagine how many sellers this has happened to, the situations about which we will never know.
Etsy needs to get its act together internally, so the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.
For Etsy’s sellers and buyers, it needs to have clear, consistent, fair, and legal policies and steps to address disputes, so that no-one - buyer or seller - is ignored or over-zealously booted off the site.
Edit: (From Serena) As you read these accounts, please keep in mind that UEN only has access to one side of the story: the seller’s. We have, however, worked hard to verify that account, and this is far too important an issue to go unmentioned.
January 19th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
[...] http://etsynews.com/73/unwarrantedaccidental-shop-suspensions-sellers-be-warned/ http://etsynews.com/75/another-case-of-erroneous-shop-suspension/ http://etsynews.com/80/how-does-admin-handle-shop-suspensions/ [...]
May 10th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
[...] a comment to an earlier post, Anda, an Etsy employee who was NOT speaking for Etsy, but for herself, said: [...]
April 16th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
yikes…
April 16th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
the idea that keeps popping into my head, as i see the process of the constitution, the do’s and don’t’s, and the things described here is:
etsy could really benefit from hiring a person who is at least 45 years old, with 20-plus years of experience, to oversee and check all customer-related policy. just someone who can say, “hey, this seems to be an over-reaction”,
or “hey, what do you mean by saying it’s okay to copy 3 of someone else’s items in your shop…that sounds kinda weird to me?”
or “okay, are we positive we want to ban vintage and put it into effect immediately? do you think some of those sellers might become upset? could we moderate this a little?”
or “hey, we really need to be clear and consistant, let’s write down a procedure for this type of problem and everyone can just follow it”
just someone with some experience and perspective to kind of proofread all of these policies and customer service responses, to bring some moderation, to help think things through.
etsy is really fresh and exciting. that’s what makes it wonderful. but i think having one person who’s experienced and seasoned would really help with some of the scary stuff.
April 15th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
“Do you know this for a fact? ”
The only facts I know are the public ones, because etsy staff would not comment on the private action they were taking. (which I think is proper) You have inside info which I’m sure is true. I agree that etsy did eventually take action, and the account is now deleted.
The public facts that I, or anyone, could see were:
1. Even after the issue was known and weeks after multiple customers had made public forum complaints,(and presumably more had made private complaints to etsy) the shop was still open and making new sales. It did not appear frozen with new sales and new listings made well after the complaints started pouring in.
(evidence visible in sold items and dates of listed items)
The shop was eventually emptied, a week or two after a later batch of complaints and retaliatory negative feedback.
2. Even weeks after the issue was known and complaints made, he continued to give new retaliatory negative feedback, pretty much identical copy/paste of the rude negs he left weeks earlier. I beleive the last batch of retaliatory negatives is what finally spurred etsy to freeze his shop, but that action came a week or two later.
(evidence visible in feedback left for others, and some of those customers posted about it on the forums)
3. As I said, I don’t know for certainty that none of the customers were given the FBI cybercrime report form. None of the ones who posted about their ordeal on the forums mentioned it, that I can recall. They did mention they had trouble getting any replies from etsy, and that the seller would not give them refunds and was ignoring their attempts to contact him.
4. I also don’t know for certainty that etsy never ordered him to give refunds, which is why I said that EITHER they never ordered him, OR they did order him and he did not obey that order.
Obviously they can only do so much and cannot force him to give the refunds, and they eventually did close his shop, so the second option is very possible.
Anyway I think we are on the same page, in the opinion that action taken against R was late in coming and was more than justified, while the action taken against these two sellers was premature and heavy-handed. It’s just an over-correction to the opposite extreme.
April 15th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
I’d actually love to hear what the customers of these transactions have to say.
MagicJelly, is there any chance of you inviting your customer here? It sounds like he was pretty reasonable.
Basically, it seems like there are more than two sides to these stories we’re hearing.
The Seller’s side.
The Customer’s side.
Etsy’s side.
If Etsy is attempting to serve as a mediator, they should be attempting to maintain neutral status. I would like to know if the customers of these transactions feel they’ve been served by Etsy’s involvement.
April 15th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Anda said:
“Everyone, we’ve only heard one side here. There are always two sides, and in these cases, I know for a fact there are two VERY differing accounts of what occurred.
I loved the UEN when it first appeared, but I’m really dismayed these last few days with the complete lack of fact-checking. Has anyone spoken to the buyers in question? Or to Etsy support?”
Anda, you are missing the point here. The issue being discussed is not between an etsy buyer and seller, but etsy and the seller. If a buyer feels that they have been wronged by a seller, they have every right to contact etsy to work it out.
How etsy dealt with the issues is the problem.
April 15th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I just wanted to add that while having both sides of a conflict is ideal, I also don’t feel that a lack of the “other side” invalidates the content of a post. When I read the same pattern of behavior experienced by numerous people, the specific details or those situations become less important. When several people report a very similar series of events I think one can fairly judge those events to hold some truth.
April 15th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Anda,
I appreciate your point of getting both sides of the story, and that would be ideal here, but I don’t really see how we have the option to do so. Nor do I feel it’s a particularly critical issue in this case.
First, it would be totally inappropriate for members to be contacting the buyers in these cases asking for more information. Etsy would probably consider that to be a form of harassment and I doubt the buyers would want to be badgered for such info.
Second, Etsy itself has a policy against discussing private issues in public, so Etsy will not provide their side of it. And truthfully, I don’t know how reliable the information would be if Etsy did since it appears that in many cases (here and in other incidents) the staff is not consistently or uniformly informed.
Lastly, we have no reason to doubt the truth or the motives of the first-hand accounts here, told by established, successful, professional sellers. The sellers have been sharing their stories in an attempt to help others. They really don’t gain anything from exposing themselves except perhaps a chance to discuss a difficult ordeal. Even if every detail is not 100% accurate, I think the commonalities are pretty clear and members have a right to be concerned. Having these accounts available to members can help them better deal with their own conflict should they find themselves in the same unfortunate situation.
The point of the UEN is to summarize news and issues occurring on Etsy for members and allow members to freely discuss those issues, within the rules of the UEN. The types of issues brought up in this blog entry are not allowed to be discussed on the forums, which IMO makes the UEN even more critical. I’m sorry to hear you find it disappointing, but perhaps your position makes the UEN a less necessary resource for you.
April 15th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
[...] a comment to and earlier post, Anda, an Etsy employee who was NOT speaking for Etsy, but for herself, said: [...]