Through comments here on UEN, and other communications, at least three cases [edited for accuracy] two cases we know of firsthand, and another on which we’re trying to get details, have come to light where shops have been suspended or almost suspended due to poor communication within Etsy, or arbitrary decisions made by Etsy based on no rules that we can find, or simple “technical glitches” that Etsy has acknowledged but for which they have not apologized.
Here are some excerpts of two of the stories, with links to the complete descriptions:
MagicJelly’s story (note: a former Featured Seller on Etsy):
A seller DID complain about me - a week & a half after the purchase date for not receiving their parcel, & I’m in Australia & he’s in the US! Instead of referring the buyer to me, giving me the benefit of the doubt or explaining on my behalf that assuming non-delivery was premature, Etsy banned me & issued the buyer with an FBI cyber-crime form to complain about me!
The fact that it was all an Etsy bungle because apparently they sent me warning emails that I never got because their system wasn’t working, & 2 people were working on the case & didn’t tell each other (one of whom I was in contact with), etc, is not the point. The point is, do Etsy, as a venue, have a legal right to basically force a seller to refund or re-send? Refunding to a dissatisfied buyer is a COURTESY, it is a discretionary policy that each seller must decide on, & nowhere in Etsy’s terms does it state that sellers must do so. If it did, we’d all be vulnerable to potential buyer dishonesty. Many of us do offer refunds, etc, but that is OUR choice & OUR policy, not something Etsy should be using standover tactics to enforce!
And if you think having a spotless record will save you, it won’t. I have over 600 transactions & 100% feedback, & one misguided complaint resulted in suspension. link
I’ve been told they issued me with system warnings once a week, but I never got them coz there was something wrong from their end. But I did get the email informing me I was suspended. I was told I was suspended because after the initial complaint, admin hadn’t heard back from “either party”…me, because I hadn’t received the emails, & the buyer because he was out of town. But someone else from admin HAD contacted me & the issue had been resolved…but neither of the two people working on the dispute knew about the other. The buyer returned to find his order had arrived, & all this drama had blown up. link
First of all I was told I was banned as admin assumed I was inactive as I hadn’t answered their emails (the ones I never got!). I pointed out that my shop was obviosuly active as I’d been fulfilling orders, giving & receiving feedback, etc, & they could have tried convoing me, but was told it’s not procedure to follow up on disputes by convo. Wouldn’t that be preferable to erroneously banning someone? And as it happens, the admin person who DID contact me, did so by convo…so procedural rules can be overlooked. link
ScrapScrap’s story:
I, too, was banned last week, albeit temporarily, over a “glitch.” I didn’t even get an apology, just an “Oops, we re-opened your account and are looking into why it happened.” link
I was banned last week as a ‘glitch’ according to Emily.
I was informed on Tuesday (the 10th) that unless I sent a specific buyer (one from hell, I might add) $8+ I would be banned permanently, as a repeat offender! Funny, there wasn’t any offense, let alone being a repeat offender. Fine, dandy. link
On the 5th, everything was hunky-dory. On the 10th, I received a notice that I would be permanently suspended if I didn’t prove the buyer had received an $8.31 refund.
After providing screenshots of my paypal account, and proof of payment to the buyer, Etsy says “No harm, no foul. And the buyer claims they still didn’t get their refund. You really should give them that money”
Anyone that sells is at risk of being suspended, through no fault of their own. And if you’re not already using it, add d/c or tracking to your packages. link
(I’m still getting details on the third incident.)If we know of these incidents only through people who know about the UEN and are comfortable posting here, imagine how many sellers this has happened to, the situations about which we will never know.
Etsy needs to get its act together internally, so the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.
For Etsy’s sellers and buyers, it needs to have clear, consistent, fair, and legal policies and steps to address disputes, so that no-one - buyer or seller - is ignored or over-zealously booted off the site.
Edit: (From Serena) As you read these accounts, please keep in mind that UEN only has access to one side of the story: the seller’s. We have, however, worked hard to verify that account, and this is far too important an issue to go unmentioned.
April 14th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
That’s just awful. The other case which I encountered in the forums a while back I suspect is very similar to magicjelly’s from the limited knowledge I have of it.
I’m the same as Karena with my shipping, also being in Australia. The added cost of delivery confirmation is too much, plus I find I only ever get the confirmation back maybe 50% of the time anyway, so it’s really not worth doing. As far as I know the only way to have the ability to fully track a delivery from Australia is to send it via courier - for a service which will allow any sort of jewellery to be shipped the starting cost is around US$60! The only confirmation I have of postage is a scanned customs receipt, which is only proof to the Australian post office which can check the barcode - not some third party.
Plus delivery naturally takes longer from one side of the world to the other than from one US city to another - and there can be customs delays and the like which are entirely beyond the control of the seller and simply part of doing business internationally.
Etsy keeps forgetting about the rest of the world in all sorts of ways. This seems to be another of them. I don’t expect Etsy staff to know the special shipping-related circumstances in each country, but they could at least consider that there is likely to be differences. And obviously allowing more time for delivery and delays is a no brainer. And, yeah, the FBI have no jurisdiction here!!
So now I’m feeling at risk too. I’ve had a few parcels go missing or arrive inexplicably very late and I’ve always settled the matter with my customers amicably when they’ve contacted me. I now dread to think what might happen if they were to contact Etsy directly instead. It all seems a bit Kafka-esque!
April 14th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
This is terrifying. I could easily be banned tomorrow, if this is how they’re doing it.
April 14th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
You shouldn’t have to PROVE you sent the money!! The transaction is between you & the buyer & I am not convinced Etsy has the right to step in. The way sellers should be held accountable for unethical behaviour is through their feedback - the damage to their reputations if they swindle buyers - NOT through the threat of suspension or a permanent ban!
In my circumstance, I don’t pay for tracking or insurance on my orders, so have no way of proving that any particular order was sent. I’m already at a disadvantage as an Australian-based seller on a US-based site, if I increased my shipping costs anymore, my sales would plummet…& since we’re talking about items in the $5-35 price range, it’s just not cost effective.
Between you, me & the fence post, it actually IS my policy to refund or re-send on lost orders - although it’s only happened once & the buyer opted for a re-send - but can you imagine if I broadcast the fact in my shop announcement? Who knows how many unprincipled buyers would claim to not receive their orders so they could get their money back! Refunding is a COURTESY…it’s discrecionary…not something Etsy should enforce! If word gets out that they strong-arm sellers into refunding at the slightest buyer complaint, then we will all be vulnerable to unprincipled buyers. Can we afford it? Many of us are financially vulnerable, trying to make a living as independent business people.
(As an aside, I’m not saying that buyers are generally dishonest & out to get us…I’ve never come across someone like Kate’s (scrapscrap) nightmare buyer…but it obviously CAN happen.)
It is not common practice for online retailers to re-send or refund lost orders - it’s stated clearly in their terms that they hold no responsibility once orders have shipped - so why is Etsy forcing compliance with this unreasonable policy? And why isn’t it clearly stated in their terms? I would love to hear from admin about this…as I was told that despite all the mistakes that lead to my suspension, that actual policy is not an error…that is their practice.
As for the time of my suspension…it happened just over a week ago. I was only suspended for a few hours as I rang Etsy & was reinstated by Rob straight away.
April 14th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Our original sale date was mid February. We tried to list on etsy on April 5, only to find ‘account deactivated.’ Checked email, and found one from etsy regarding suspension dated April 5. It was basically the same on that MagicJelly rec’d, including giving the buyer the FBI form.
Funny thing though, they never requested proof of shipment or delivery; only that we had wronged this buyer (untrue), and unless we agreed to make it right, we would be permanently banned from etsy. This was one unproven incident in more than 400 items sold, with 100% positive feedback. There were no warning emails, no request for our side of the story.
We emailed copies of our delivery confirmation and PP dispute which had found in our favor. I tried calling the phone number listed for etsy, but no one will ever respond. We waited…
Finally on the afternoon of the 6th, our account was back up. We received an email from etsy basically telling us that OOPS, we had a glitch, you’re good to go.
On April 10th, we received another email from etsy stating that we still owed this buyer $8.31 and if we didn’t prove that we sent it to them, our account would be permenently banned. As we had included the cash (a $10 bill) in with their package, we didn’t have proof and sent them a PP payment for the $8.31. We sent proof of this to etsy, in the form of screenshots of our PP acct. This buyer then sent us a bill for $8.31 through PP.
At this point, it became clear that etsy was not reading the emails we sent, and there was nothing we could possible do to convince them that we HAD made this buyer whole and then some. We waited…again, for the etsy decision.
On April 11th, after going through all of this hassle, etsy told us that they could not determine if we had sent the money in the buyer’s envelope and the case was closed. BUT, we should refund the buyer the $8.31.
So, at this point we have an etsy black mark from a crazed buyer who has lied continually throughout this ordeal, using etsy to extort money from us.
April 14th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Starry, based on the comments they made, it sounds like both incidents happened within the last 1-6 weeks.
April 14th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I’m not sure what good an FBI form would’ve done for any buyer filing against a seller who is a non-US citizen residing outside of the US government’s jurisdiction. (MagicJelly is in Australia.)
Definitely an intimidating factor, but as an effective tool? The FBI has no jurisdiction there.
Whassup, INTERPOL!?
April 14th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
on second reading, I am most disturbed that MagicJelly was facing an FBI crime report. (??!!!!!) all over a misunderstanding and internal mistake. I agree with her previous comment in the other entry: it’s not just Etsy inconsistencies that are alarming, but the questionable methods used to punish the “violations”.
The TOU don’t spell out these kinds of things, don’t plainly describe the consequences, the means to determine a violation, nor the methods used to deal with them. It’s not clear what they can force a seller to do as opposed to what should be at a the seller’s discretion, nor what Etsy’s legal limitations are.
April 14th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
this is damned scary stuff. I want to know who scrapscrap’s customer from hell was so I can avoid them :-/
Luckily I’ve been pushing my focus away from etsy to my personal site.
bah!
~Sarah
April 14th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
This makes me worried.
Elizabeth: Could you please post the dates of the incidents so we know when this happened? I think it is important. :)
April 14th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Has your shop been suspended accidentally or for unclear reasons?
I’m trying to get more examples (if they exist) so I can find a pattern that could potentially solve this problem. Please email me at emckinstry [at] gmail.com or convo me - thanks. All emails/convos will be confidential unless you specifically indicate otherwise.