UPDATE by quirke 06-15-08
The accused shop, Ulljasbeads.etsy.com, is no longer active on Etsy.
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UEN has received an outline from Etsy seller Abeadisborn detailing an apparent case of fraud on Etsy, alleging that another Etsy seller has been purchasing and re-selling lampwork beads from other artists under the claim that she had made the beads herself. The following information has been published with permission of the author.
On April 19th, 2008, I received an email from a fellow glass-bead maker on Ebay. She had asked if I was aware of someone purchasing my handmade lampwork beads through Ebay, and selling them in her own Etsy store, claiming to have made the beads herself. I was quite shocked, and had to investigate further. This link: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200215772276&category=34070 shows my Ebay auction, won by the alleged IP offender, gerbera28, aka Ullja/Melek Kuntze. By request, I made this auction available as a “buy it now” for the customer, because she said she was in need of the beads very quickly. The beads were mailed to: Melek Kuntze [address removed], with a delivery confirmation of 9101 7850 9140 1537 7553 85, which were delivered to the home at 5:24 PM on April 22, 2008 in [location removed].
After investigating further, I found this indeed was true. This link: http://www.etsy.com/view_transaction.php?transaction_id=8440928 is the link to the altered by Etsy sale information, of my beads. Sold by Ullja Kuntze, gerbera28. The attachment with this email is the original sold information page, screen printed, BEFORE Etsy made alterations to the description. Also attached, is the PDF file of the documents I faxed to Etsy, on May 27th 2008, pertaining to this matter.
After contacting other fellow lampworkers about this occurance, many beadmakers like myself, found evidence of this happening to them as well. It became a very big issue, and more complaints were sent to Etsy.
I followed Etsy’s Intellectual Property Right claim guidelines, by faxing them all the pertinent information pointing to this Etsy seller, and provided them with the proof, showing her fraudulent activity on Etsy. Etsy’s attorney, Sarah Feingold, called me to confirm that she had gotten the fax information, and the matter was being looked into. Shortly after, I noticed about 72 sale listings at Ulljasbeads.etsy.com, disappeared. Those listings were of the same nature as mine. They were handmade lampwork beads, made by people other than her, and she knew she was caught. I have a PDF file of all Ulljas Etsy listing pages, before they were removed. If you need them, please let me know so I can send you a copy.
To date, Ulljasbeads.etsy.com is still an active selling member of Etsy. She is still advertising other people’s handmade lampwork beads on her website, located at http://yhst-59139618684516.stores.yahoo.net/ - if you follow this link, the blue encased floral bead featured on her front page, is still being displayed, whos copyright belongs to someone other than her, who has also filed an IPC complaint on her.
In case the screenshot linked to is unclear, the text that was removed from the sold listing reads “All my beads are made by me in my private glass studio in Milan Italy… kiln annealed overnight for durabilityand strenght and Dremel cleaned for you”.
The listing that Abeadisborn refers to as being altered by Etsy may be one of the listings that Etsy has admitted to altering (see our previous coverage here).
From Etsy’s Copyright Policy:
B. Once Proper Bona Fide Infringement Notification is Received by the Designated Agent, it is Etsy’s policy:
1. To remove or disable access to the material infringing upon the intellectual property;
2. To notify the user that Etsy has removed or disabled access to the material; and
3. That repeat offenders will have their infringing material removed from the system and that Etsy will terminate such users’ access to the service.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
“That repeat offenders will have their infringing material removed from the system and that Etsy will terminate such users’ access to the service.”
But they haven’t have they?
This screams lawsuit!
June 13th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
I don’t understand why sellers who commit proven fraud more than once are permitted to continue to sell on Etsy, while sellers with excellent reputations and no history of trouble are shut down without warning over a single non-delivery report.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Yeah, and the etsytools folks receive death threats and are forced to shut down a voluntary service but a conniving seller fares well…it just ain’t right! Where are the cheerleaders now? I believe someone mentioned in one of the forum threads that this “goes to the very ethical core of Etsy”. This is when everyone needs to be circling the wagons and defending the site and the handmade movement by getting rid of fraudulent sellers. They should be clamoring for Etsy to do something about this!!
June 13th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
A google cached page of the green beads listing on Apr 30, 2008, right before they sold.
The text is a little more readable than the screenshot, but it clearly claims that she personally made the beads herself. This text has ben removed after the item was sold, by Etsy.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
When I read Matt’s sensible comment about the editing sold listings thing, I assumed he was talking about instances where, say, someone has sold a Hello Kitty item and the copyright owners have insisted the image of the item and perhaps the brand name be removed from the sold item. That makes perfect sense to me and is a good reason to edit a sold listing.
But this incident seems like a very poor use of that ability by Etsy. If anything they should have put in a note which was clearly written by Etsy to state that the seller did not make the item - and they should have left in the lies by the seller, IMO.
And, yes, a seller who is clearly behaving in a fraudulent manner (which is very different to just being naive about copyright law) should be removed. Given all of the shops that have been removed for little or no reason, it’s insane that this one should remain in the circumstances.
By the way, I’m very interested in how someone can be an expert baker in one country and an expert glass maker in another at the same time. I suspect Etsy needs to look beyond this one shop to see what else has been going on!
June 14th, 2008 at 12:01 am
If they edited the listing to comply with the DMCA complaint, which seems to be their contention from what Matt said, then that means they admit the seller did violate another person’s IP rights. (actually more than one other seller’s rights were violated)
So if Etsy admits that, why can’t they close down the store for that violation?
They have closed stores for so much less!
June 14th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Thanks to Abeadisborn, for sharing her experience, and to quirke, for posting this article. The word really needs to get out about this.
The handling of this situation by Etsy is unconscionable. Where is the support for the independent artisan trying to make a living by her/his craft? Where is the consequence for not only defrauding Etsy buyers, but blatantly and flagrantly breaking the TOUs?
Editing those sold listings did nothing to protect the injured parties. It covered-up the evidence of impropriety and, as of this moment, allows the unscrupulous seller to continue to profit at the unlawful expense of others. A great deal of harm has been done. Do the admins not care that sellers feel abandoned and betrayed by Etsy and have emptied their shops?
This is shameful.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:16 am
Supposedly Dawanda shut down a store she had there…it seems that a site newer (i think) than Etsy has a way to properly handle such allegations.
They really need to get their act together. These are livelihoods at stake, nevermind the fact that their ethics are currently in question.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:40 am
There are MANY MANY other artists that Ullja did the same thing to. Etsy has the proof of several fraudulent transactions that transpired from ulljasbeads.etsy.com and they have yet to shut her down… it’s inexcusable.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Ironically, the bead seller accused of fraud with their bead shop also owned a bakery shop on Etsy, and that shop has been shut down.
What did the bakery store do that is worse than what the bead store is doing? Why shut one and not the other?
June 14th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Yeah! I thought that what you do with one id falls onto all your shops…
June 14th, 2008 at 1:35 am
Apparently the bakery shop was an unlicensed kitchen in Texas - the Texas authorities shut her down.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Step 3 in Etsy’s copyright policy says they’ll remove material from the system, and terminate the user’s access to the system for repeat offenders. Well? There’s been at least 4 complaints filed… I don’t understand why the repeat offender is still here. Makes no sense to me. Why state a policy, when you’re not going to abide by it.
June 14th, 2008 at 2:06 am
This is terrible.
I agree with GM. If anything, the deletion of that text obscures what actually happened.
I wonder why Sarah allowed a seller’s representation on a sold item to be deleted? Was there an accusation the removed TEXT itself was copyrighted? Perhaps I am not clear on the DMCA concept.
June 14th, 2008 at 2:12 am
I’m beginning to wonder where she got her law degree soap…but then again, it fits right in with everyone else. Noone working CS has a customer service background and the CEO has no management background.
lovely!
June 14th, 2008 at 2:21 am
AliciaMae,
You know, it’s common sense, so you don’t even need a legal degree. I’d can’t imagine any buyer would be happy to see that part excised, as if it weren’t part of the “selling points.”
Seriously, I’ve never seen anything like this before and I’ve seen all sorts of weird stuff (mostly from the dot com days) which is why my response really is o_O.
*waxes nostalgic ;)
June 14th, 2008 at 2:22 am
crap, I need an edit function -
“would be happy” in my post above should read “would be unhappy.”
June 14th, 2008 at 2:26 am
oh, forget it. Typos galore. You all know what I mean. I think it’s bed time for this soapmaker :)
June 14th, 2008 at 2:58 am
lol soap, I hear ya! I totally agree
June 14th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I can see why they would remove the photo, which they did not, but I do not see why they edited the text. The way they edited the text and left the fraudulent seller makes it look like resale is A-Ok with them. After all the beads were not listed as supplies.
Today it is beaders. Tomorrow it could be any or every other category.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I think the fact that this happened and was discovered does not surprise me at all…there will always be people trying to make a fast buck off the backs of others. But the way Etsy is handling the situation downright baffles me. The only reason I can “reckon” as to why they keep shops up that people repeatedly protest are practicing shady business is because those particular shops are just too profitable for Etsy to let go of without a fight. Ethical? of course not. Profitable? yes, in the short term, but that seems to be the nature of how most decisions are made there.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I’m really coming into this late. I found the thread in lampworketc.
My thoughts are that etsy did not shut ullja’s bead shop down because of her sales. She’s averaging over 227 sales per month. Why would they want to lose that money? Dawanda shut her down most likely because she was a new shop there.
Since everything else has seem unethical on Etsy’s part, I’m surprised they didn’t close her down and tell her to just start a new shop.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Seriously 227 sales is not that much money. A lot of those auctions were $9.99. I am not sure what the gross was but it couldn’t be that much $.
I am puzzled why they would upset so many sellers to save one? It stinks.
Thank-you Etsynews for getting the word out! You guys ROCK!!
There are so many lampwork artists that were involved its unreal.
June 14th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
haha, Jamn, you’re right. I think I was just blinded by the average of 227 sales/month.
I calculated at each being a $20 sale, that it is only about $158. Maybe the activity to the site helps etsy earn money too. I have no idea. Just grasping at straws, and that was all I could come up with.
Also, I don’t think etsy is concerned with too many people leaving. Where are we going to go? I have no other options that I’ve been able to find. And I will not go back to ebay.
Maybe I need to so some more research…..hmmm
June 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
glasstastic, I use dawanda- they are smaller, but growing bigger by the day, and the site actually functions well. Also, they kicked this same seller off their site immediately once evidence was brought to them.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Thanks so much for breaking this news, UEN This is precisely why I follow this blog — I get the story no one tells at Etsy. I had seem references to an issue about beads, but wasn’t on the inside and didn’t have enough information to follow things.
This is really serious stuff, and Etsy needs to act on it. Editing a sold listing in this case (and not booting the seller) makes them seem complicit in the ongoing fraud.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I have been a victim of copying on etsy, too. I filed a DMCA to etsy several times and the other seller’s listings were removed. Even with multiple offenses multiple times, the other seller is still allowed to sell. Now she has even copied the look and feel of my entire shop. From the forums/blogs that the other seller has participated in, I think she is a favorite among the etsy staff, fo I guess there must be a gray area for those who kiss up to etsy. I am trying to look for another venue to sell at since they can’t even follow their own rules. Independent art must be protected and it isn’t protected on etsy, so I will have to go elsewhere, I guess.
June 15th, 2008 at 12:59 am
quirke Says:
June 13th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
“I don’t understand why sellers who commit proven fraud more than once are permitted to continue to sell on Etsy, while sellers with excellent reputations and no history of trouble are shut down without warning over a single non-delivery report.”
As others have said…… SALES. Even if 227 isn’t that much it is still huge compared to most and every little bit counts. Or, is she friends or related to someone at Etsy? We all know how Etsy works. There are plenty of people out there in Etsy land who are getting special privileges because of who they know. Whatever the reason. It should be quite apparent to everyone by now that Etsy only follows Etsy’s rules when they feel like it. There is no rhyme or reason to it. What’s new! I have come to accept it and that is why I don’t do much business on the site anymore.
June 15th, 2008 at 2:28 am
I don’t think it’s sales. ArtfulMarket got shut down over one non-delivery report and she had 15,000 sales.
I would guess it’s disorganization, bad or no training, not hiring people with the proper experience, the left hand not knowing what the right is doing, and all of that leading to perpetual inconsistency.
It’s either that, or Etsy thinks one non-delivery report is a far more heinous crime than willful and repeated fraud.
June 15th, 2008 at 3:04 am
I’m playing Devil’s Advocate here. In light of the terminations/reinstatements of sellers, including ArtfulMarket, perhaps Etsy is taking more time before closing accounts or otherwise meting punishment? Not that that explains deleting a seller’s explicit representation in a reported sold listing, without even a notation that anything had been edited.
I’ve read only a fraction of what’s posted on the LE forum and am amazed at the number of artists coming forward there. I wonder if this is “the first” time this sort of issue has been raised on Etsy. Remember how long it took for the whole R thing? I also caught up on one of the earlier (?) threads and was shocked at some of the other Etsy user’s posts. It still (I know, dumb me) shocks me to see people tell other sellers they are not wanted on the site, for posting on a forum thread. And it seems to be the same cluster of people, every time some poo like this goes down, as happened when the other sellers got closed/reopened, apologies issued.
btw - I have no inside knowledge or anything. I’ve not been keeping up on the fora much except for goofiness and didn’t read any of the threads until today. I’m trying to make sense of things and am not doing a very good job at it.
June 15th, 2008 at 3:06 am
btw - the LE forum posts are an interesting read and I’ve only touched the first few pages. It sounds really convoluted. I don’t really want to post even a synopsis here because I don’t want to chance getting it wrong.
Seriously, sign up and go read.
June 15th, 2008 at 4:08 am
Soap I think you’re probably right. Etsy is over-correcting again, swinging too far to the opposite extreme. I know that when so many sellers got brick-walled over mistakes or over one non-delivery out of thousands of sales, many people (including me) said they need to take more time, have a more objective process, etc.
But I have ALWAYS supported and defended Etsy’s right to refuse service at any time for any reason. Every website has that clause in the TOU, and if they don’t, they are crazy. Private business needs that right but they also need to use it judiciously.
My only objection was that Etsy seemed to refuse service too hastily, or over small infractions. I never said they shouldn’t use that clause ever, only that they shouldn’t use it lightly. But this situation right now is exactly the kind of thing that clause was designed for! This is the time to use it.
June 15th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
They shot themselves in the foot by using their right too loosely and now they’re gonna say “but you told us to be more careful!” Just like they always do. “Well you wanted alchemy” when that free for all was launched in beta without being called beta “well you wanted gift guides” when they added a curated site wide one instead of shop ones”well you wanted more promo opportunities” when they added more showcases “well you wanted to be more SEO friendly” when they added our shop names all over. Turning it back on their customers.
Real smart way to do business
June 15th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
HER SHOP IS FINALLY CLOSED!
June 15th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Amen!!!
June 15th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Thanks, Unofficial Etsy News!!
June 15th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
*claps*
June 15th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Thank You Etsy, for protecting artists rights!
(finally)
June 16th, 2008 at 3:10 am
I am BEYOND thrilled that her shop has been closed down. This affects the entire art community, and I’m pleased Etsy shut her down (finally).
I followed the entire LE thread as it went on, and from what I gathered, she was reported to the Texas authorities for her bakery, and the people living in that location denied access for a kitchen inspection. From what I understand, it looks like she herself may have asked Etsy to close down the bakery shop, not the other way around, to avoid any trouble. Also, at several different times, she claimed that online bakery shop as her own and then as her mother’s, hence the being in two different countries at the same time. Who is actually who, and how that whole closure happened is anybody’s guess.
I DO know that on top of a bakery and a bead shop, she also had a jewelry shop last fall (she was on a street team that I was on), but closed that shop over the winter. And the new owner of Indiepublic has since kicked her off that site, too.
In any event, I’m glad she’s gone.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:05 am
The selling community can sigh with relief now that the offending store has finally been shut down, but customer confidence in Etsy is severely damaged. By customers, I mean the sellers, remember us Etsy? And what does this do to the reputation of the site? The confidence of buyers?
Hosting an “open site” has responsibilities and consequences. By allowing the site to grow to over 150,000 stores without adequate controls and the willingness to enforce them has left Etsy in quite a mess. While Etsy writes a huge and ever-growing newsletter, hosts 6 different chat areas, promotes and attends shows to recruit more stores, and spends 80% of their efforts on promoting social networking functions, the ecommerce has suffered from lack of attention.
And it shows.
When customers start complaining that they “can’t find any handmade items on Etsy anymore, it’s so full of junk.” ALL stores are hurt by that perception and that reality. And now buyers have to be worried about outright fraud?
June 30th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Those DNS address did not work for me, I am still unable to access etsy and yes it bothers me greatly. I get notifications of conversations through email and that is the only way I know if something is happening in my shop! Blah! It has now been 4-5 days without etsy! I read somewhere it would only be 5 dys at most… we shall see tomorrow! Yes, it does make me want to quit using etsy as I have had several issues with etsy as far as site issues and people cpoying my product with no resolve.
April 5th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
[...] the lamp passing off everything – including the creation of the beads – as her own (story here). Ebay is infamous for false or stolen photographic images for sale as [...]